Legislature(1993 - 1994)
02/11/1994 09:10 AM Senate STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
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+ teleconferenced
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SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
February 11, 1994
9:10 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Loren Leman, Chair
Senator Mike Miller, Vice Chair
Senator Jim Duncan
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Johnny Ellis
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 237
"An Act relating to offenses involving delivery of firearms to
minors and to offenses involving possession of dangerous
instruments, including firearms, by minors."
SENATE BILL NO. 267
"An Act relating to the training of law enforcement and corrections
officers; to the establishment of surcharges to be assessed for
violations of certain traffic offenses; creating the Alaska police
standards training fund; and providing for an effective date."
SENATE BILL NO. 216
"An Act relating to the sale, display, or distribution of material
harmful to minors at places where minors are allowed to be present
and where minors are allowed to view such material."
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 237 - See State Affairs minutes dated 2/9/94 and 2/11/94.
SB 267 - No previous senate committee action.
SB 216 - No previous senate committee action.
WITNESS REGISTER
Laddie Shaw, Executive Director
Alaska Police Standards Council
P.O. Box 111200, Juneau, AK 99811¶465-4378
POSITION STATEMENT: in support of SB 267
Donna Schultz
Division of Family & Youth Services
Department of Health & Social Services
P.O. Box 110630, Juneau, AK 99811-0630¶465-2112
POSITION STATEMENT: testified on SB 237
Portia Babcock, Aide
Senate State Affairs Committee
State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-2095
POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of SB 237
C.E. Swackhammer, Deputy Commissioner
Department of Public Safety
P.O. Box 111200, Juneau, AK 99811-1200¶465-4322
POSITION STATEMENT: opposed to SB 237
Diane Schenker, Special Assistant to the Commissioner
Department of Corrections
2200 E. 42nd Ave., Anchorage, AK 99508-5202¶561-4426
POSITION STATEMENT: testified on SB 237
Jody Engleman
Juneau Youth Services
P.O. Box 032839, Juneau, AK 99803-2839¶789-7610
POSITION STATEMENT: testified on SB 237
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-3732
POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of SB 216
Leigh Ann Barnes
Cordova, AK 99574¶424-5691
POSITION STATEMENT: in favor of SB 216
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 94-8, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN LEMAN calls the Senate State Affairs Committee to order at
9:10 a.m.
Number 010
CHAIRMAN LEMAN states that since the committee does not have a
quorum, the meeting will operate as a work session until more
members arrive. The chairman brings up as first order of business
SB 267 (ALASKA POLICE STNDS TRAINING FUND) and calls the first
witness.
Number 022
LADDIE SHAW, Executive Director, Alaska Police Standards Council,
Department of Public Safety (DPS), says SB 267 addresses the
ongoing problem of fulfilling the inservice and specialized
training requirements of law enforcement and corrections personnel
state-wide. SB 267 would generate the funding necessary to provide
this training. Mr. Shaw reads from a prepared statement describing
the duties of the Alaska Police Standards Council and the problems
the council has providing training to law enforcement and
corrections personnel due to funding shortfalls. Mr. Shaw states
any specialized training requirements have to be funded by
communities because the state is not funding for the training, so
most personnel in smaller communities get no additional training.
Number 070
MR. SHAW states that by developing the user-fee assessment funding
system, violator's will pay for police and corrections personnel
training.
Number 080
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Mr. Shaw and asks if anyone has questions to
ask of Mr. Shaw. Hearing none, the chairman asks Mr. Shaw when the
meeting to work on the fee-collection portion of SB 267 will occur.
Number 090
MR. SHAW replies the meeting will be Tuesday afternoon, and
participants will be the Departments of Law and Corrections, and
representatives from Senator Leman's and Representative Gail
Phillips' offices.
Number 095
CHAIRMAN LEMAN notes it is his intent to incorporate DPS's fee
collection ideas into SB 267, and he hopes the bill will be ready
to release from committee by Wednesday, February 16, 1994.
Number 103
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings SB 237 (WEAPONS POSSESSION/SALE BY/TO MINORS)
up for consideration before the State Affairs Committee. The
Chairman calls the first witness.
Number 120
DONNA SCHULTZ, Division of Family & Youth Services (DFYS),
Department of Health & Social Services (DHSS), states DHSS supports
efforts to control or limit the possession of firearms by minors.
However, there are several problematic issues the department sees
with SB 237. One is in section 7, which would automatically waive
a minor who is at least 14 years of age at the time of the offense,
who uses a firearm in the commission of that offense, and has been
previously adjudicated a delinquent or convicted as an adult. The
first problem DHSS sees with this section is it is not immediately
known if a youth has been adjudicated a delinquent in another
jurisdiction. There is no data system containing that information.
Does "any other jurisdiction" mean the State of Alaska is obligated
to check with every other state to see if there is any record?
Also, "adjudicated delinquent" does not delineate whether the
adjudication was for a misdemeanor or a felony charge. If the
state's goal is to rehabilitate minor offenders, fourteen is too
young an age to be waived to adult status. Ms. Schultz believes
this a rather punitive step. There is already a judicial waiver in
statute now, so waiver to adult status is already an option if it
is felt to be needed in a particular instance. The department does
not blanketly oppose automatic waivers and is currently working
with the sponsor of SB 54 (OFFENSES BY JUVENILE OFFENDERS), which
deals with the juvenile waiver issue. Ms. Schultz states the
department would like to see section 7 deleted from SB 237.
Number 174
MS. SCHULTZ says the Department of Health & Social Services thinks
section 8 is unnecessarily specific. The provision to suspend a
minor's driver's license is an option that is already available as
a condition of probation under current statutes. She is also
concerned about the delay a person would experience in committing
an offense and being punished for that offense in the instance the
person committing the crime was under 16 years of age. For that
reason, the department recommends section 8 also be deleted.
Number 192
CHAIRMAN LEMAN understands Ms. Schultz's concerns; the committee
will look at the issues she addressed in her testimony. He
understands the problems involved in getting information on
previous offenses from other jurisdictions. The chairman asks Ms.
Schultz if she is suggesting leaving the penalty of suspending a
driver's license totally up to the court. Ms. Schultz responds
that is correct. The chairman then remarks that 14 year-olds
having to wait until they are 16 to have driver's licenses revoked
is similar to persons convicted of driving while intoxicated (DWI)
having to wait 9 months to serve their sentences. Chairman Leman
says delayed punishment is a problem in the system. The chairman
thinks having driver's licenses suspended would be an incentive for
someone under 16 not to violate the firearms ordinance.
Number 214
MS. SCHULTZ isn't sure it would be a deterrent because persons
under 16 don't always think that far ahead, are acting in the
moment, or don't think they will be caught. She thinks also that
youth would be more affected if the consequences for their actions
were more immediate.
Number 227
PORTIA BABCOCK, Aide, Senate State Affairs Committee, says the
intent of waiving juveniles to adult status when they commit an
offense with a firearm is to send the message that offenses
committed with firearms will be treated seriously. Even if the
violation is a misdemeanor, the juvenile offender will be treated
as an adult if they commit a crime with a firearm.
Number 251
MS. SCHULTZ says that is her concern, that if the state is getting
tougher, it is getting tougher on misdemeanor offenses. She thinks
that a 14 year old charged with a misdemeanor offense should not be
charged as an adult. Fourteen is to young for an automatic waiver,
and that decision should be left in the judicial process.
Number 265
SENATOR MILLER disagrees and says that a juvenile using a firearm
could easily cross that thin line. He has a hard time
understanding Ms. Schultz's rationale and arguments.
Number 276
MS. SCHULTZ states that for 14 year-olds there is already a system
in place that enables the court to have the defendant's status as
a minor waived and treated as an adult if it is deemed necessary.
Number 281
CHAIRMAN LEMAN says Ms. Schultz's comments will be taken into
consideration.
Number 283
MS. BABCOCK states the Department of Public Safety (DPS) has some
concerns about driver's license suspension and how a law like that
would be implemented. The committee is going to work with DPS to
try to figure out what might work best from an administrative
standpoint. The reason penalties relating to revocation of driving
privileges was put in SB 237 is it has been more effective than
other penalties for juvenile offenses.
Number 301
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Ms. Schultz and Ms. Babcock for their
comments. The chairman calls the next witness
Number 301
C.E. SWACKHAMMER, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety
(DPS), says he is concentrating his comments on the concealed
weapons portion of SB 237. DPS is opposed to the general
philosophy of allowing a permitting process for carrying concealed
weapons. This opposition is based on two aspects: the increased
danger to the public and the increased danger to police officers.
Mr. Swackhammer says the carrying of concealed weapons will
escalate the number of simple assaults into lethal assaults.
If the legislature is determined to pass a provision requiring
permitting for the carrying of concealed weapons, there are several
aspects in SB 237 the department would like to address. The first
is that there be a need-base for the purposes of receiving a permit
to carry a concealed weapon. The second is that training be
required for persons to receive a permit. The training should be
in three areas: one- safety and proper handling of the weapon; two-
ability to be confident of reasonable accuracy; three- the
permittee should have knowledge of the legal parameters for the use
of lethal force. Law enforcement personnel receive extensive
training in handling weapons and responding to crisis, in
particular what level of force is required for specific instances.
Number 349
MR. SWACKHAMMER states DPS would also like to see a provision in SB
237 requiring mandatory reporting to a law officer that the person
is carrying a concealed weapon upon initial contact with the
officer. The chairman asks Mr. Swackhammer if he means anyone
carrying a concealed weapon who has contact with a police officer,
including simply being stopped for a traffic violation should have
to report the concealed weapon. Mr. Swackhammer answers yes, it
should have to be reported during any contact with an officer.
Number 361
MR. SWACKHAMMER says the bill only allows for one set of
fingerprints, but DPS would recommend taking two sets of
fingerprints, primarily because one set has to go to the FBI and
the other set goes through the state's automatic fingerprint
system. The department also believes the fee for applying for a
permit to carry a concealed weapon should be established by
regulation and not in statute. It costs the department $59 to
process a set of fingerprints.
Number 374
MR. SWACKHAMMER states it is of concern to DPS that the department
does not have access to information on the mental health of an
individual.
The Department of Public Safety also believes that the definition
of a deadly weapon in SB 237 is too broad, because it would also
include explosive devices. Also qualified by SB 237 would be metal
knuckles and numchucks.
Number 387
MR. SWACKHAMMER says the last concern the department has with SB
237 has to do with the department's automatic fingerprint system.
This bill will accelerate the filling up of the AAFIS (Alaska
Automated Fingerprint Identification System) capability. At the
present time, the AAFIS is capable of 250 thousand prints. As of
January 5, 1994, AAFIS had 172 thousand prints on file. At the
present level, DPS is putting 1130 new sets of fingerprints into
the system every month. It is the department's estimation, based
on looking at the State of Washington and their permitting process
for concealed weapons, of which 4% of the population has a
concealed weapon permit, that AAFIS would take in about 3200 new
prints a month, at least initially. Although DPS used Washington's
rate of 4% of the population, Alaska would probably have a higher
percentage of persons wanting to carry concealed weapons. At 3200
new sets of prints a month, AAFIS would be at capacity in about ten
months. The State of Alaska's AAFIS is no longer manufactured, so
the state would have to go to new technology. The cost of
implementing a new system is over two million dollars. So SB 237
will create an administrative problem for the department. The
Department of Public Safety would be prepared to work with the
committee to try to flesh out some proposals for amendments to
address the departments concerns.
Number 413
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if someone from DPS will be available to work
with the committee between now and Wednesday. Mr. Swackhammer
responds that they will be available. The chairman asks if the
AAFIS was installed in the last four years. Mr. Swackhammer
replies AAFIS has been in place longer than four years.
Number 425
CHAIRMAN LEMAN notes that at 9:37 a.m. the committee has a quorum
and is officially in business. The chairman asks how old AAFIS is.
Mr. Swackhammer believes AAFIS was installed approximately in 1984
or 1985, and the technology has changed considerably since that
time. The chairman asks if it would be to the department's
advantage to have an upgraded system. Mr. Swackhammer replies
AAFIS must be replaced, and SB 237 would simply accelerate that
happening by filling AAFIS to capacity.
Number 444
SENATOR DUNCAN asks what the position of the Department of Public
Safety is on SB 237.
Number 447
MR. SWACKHAMMER responds the department has only addressed the
concealed weapons portion of the bill, to which the department is
opposed.
Number 449
SENATOR MILLER moves the adoption of the committee substitute for
SB 237 for purposes of discussion.
Number 451
CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, orders that CSSB 237(STA) be
adopted in lieu of the original bill. The chairman asks Mr.
Swackhammer if he is prepared to comment on the juvenile weapons
possession portion of SB 237. Mr. Swackhammer replies he will have
comments available for the committee on Wednesday, February 16,
1994. The chairman calls the next witness.
Number 460
DIANE SCHENKER, Special Assistant, Department of Corrections (DOC),
states she will just address the juvenile waiver section of SB 237.
The department is concerned about having 14 year-olds in the adult
prison population. Under current law, the possibility exists for
DOC to occasionally get someone who is 14 years-old waived for a
serious offense, although she is not aware of anyone that young
currently in the correctional system. The fiscal impact is fairly
significant, depending on the number of offenses of this nature
that would occur. The management that is involved in separating a
prisoner from the rest of the prison population is fairly
expensive. Right now, DOC generally keeps minors separated from
adults. The department is not bound to doing so, but does so as a
matter of professional judgement. The department keeps minors
separated, at least initially, so the department can see what kind
predator-victim dynamics there are it work in the prison. Ms.
Schenker says, although she is not an expert on the development of
children, it is hard for her to imagine that a 14 year-old would
not have to be separated from the adult population. There are
hundreds of sex-offenders incarcerated in the Alaska prison system
who are there for committing offenses against minors in that type
of age category.
In order to keep someone separately housed, separately fed,
separately recreated, and provide all the other rights that the
prison system is bound to provide under the Cleary settlement,
statutes, and the constitution requires extra staffing that the
department currently does not have. If the minor were charged with
a misdemeanor offense involving a weapon, the minor would still be
booked into one of the corrections facilities. It is at the
booking point that the department is most concerned with the
provision to charge the minor as an adult, because it is at the
booking point that the department has to be able to provide
separate housing at thirteen different institutions around the
state. The department would end up having to separate four
different populations (adult males, adult females, juvenile males,
and juvenile females) which gets very costly. Ms. Schenker does
not have a specific fiscal note because she doesn't know the rate
at which this problem occurs. But if it were more than a very
small handful of incidents, the department would anticipate serious
staffing problems and expenses to keep 14 year-olds from being
housed with much older adults and people who are likely to be much
more skilled at predatory activities than a 14 year old.
Number 510
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Schultz of DFYS how many juveniles SB 237
might affect. Ms. Schultz replies she does not have an immediate
answer, but she can certainly try to find some information on the
subject. The chairman asks Ms. Schenker how long, approximately,
the booking process is.
Number 520
MS. SCHENKER replies the booking process varies, depending on the
offense, the offense history of the defendant, and the finances of
the defendant. Generally speaking until the time of arraignment,
the process takes at least a day. If a defendant remains in pre-
trial status until they either plead or have a trial and are
convicted, it could take up to a year, and possibly two, if the
defendant is charged with a felony. The department's concern is
that even though some defendants will bail out, there will be
people detained in every corrections facility, under the provisions
in SB 267. The department would still have the same concern about
separation after sentencing, because DOC would still have to keep
the juveniles separate from the rest of the prison population.
Number 561
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Ms. Schenker for her testimony and says he
shares some of her concerns. The chairman calls the next witness.
Number 561
JODY ENGLEMAN, Juneau Youth Services (treatment facility for
children with serious behavioral problems), says she is concerned
with violence among teens. Recognizing that this concern exists,
she would like to see a more straightforward approach to the
problem. A good approach, in her view, would be to say to
teenagers, and anyone, that a gun is a dangerous thing and that
they should not be using it. She says the lenient penalties send
the message that it is okay to misuse firearms. She says since the
penalties for carrying a weapon are so inconsequential, there is no
continuity between sentences for misdemeanors involving a gun and
felonies involving a gun. She says there is too much of a
discrepancy in virtually no punishment for a first offense, while
waiving someone to adult status for a second or third offense.
Number 584
MS. ENGLEMAN is very concerned with the fact that the committee is
not looking at prevention or early intervention with these kids,
that simply whacking them big-time at the end will teach them
something, when it won't. What it does say, is "you got caught,
therefore, we're going to throw you away". So other kids say, well
the issue is not getting caught, not that misuse of guns is bad or
that serious consequences happen. The penalties in SB 237 do not
send a very straightforward message to kids and she is concerned
with that. She is appalled at 14 year-olds being treated as adults
for committing misdemeanors with firearms. A 14 year-old is going
to come out of an adult penal system as a very twisted individual.
Ms. Engleman says if she was writing the law, if she had the magic
wand, she would make misuse of firearms a felony offense and put
offenders in the juvenile system.
94-8, SIDE B
Number 594
MS. ENGLEMAN says she would have made misuse of firearms a class C
felony and left the kids in the juvenile system. She thinks the
juvenile system is still effective in handling children's crimes,
and the issues and problems of children and youths.
Number 590
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Engleman what the penalty is for a class C
felony in the juvenile system.
Number 589
MS. ENGLEMAN understands a class C felony allows the judge and the
probation officers to place the child in the custody of the
division to supervise that child's behavior in the community and to
establish conditions of probation. However, Ms. Schultz could
address that question better than she could. At a misdemeanor
level, the state will not take custody of the child.
Number 583
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Engleman if she agrees with the provision
suspending driver's licenses.
Number 582
MS. ENGLEMAN says it will make an impact with good kids, but with
kids who are pretty delinquent, it won't make much of an impact.
There are a lot of delinquent juveniles who are driving without
licenses anyway. She would rather see more immediate and more
logical consequences for misbehavior involving firearms. If a
juvenile carries a gun, that juvenile should be on probation,
should be supervised, should have to submit to anger management
treatment and a whole number of other things. She even thinks a
juvenile should have to spend time in a juvenile justice facility.
Ms. Engleman states our society has a very violent culture and a
terribly violent subculture among our teens, yet we have not given
the proper tools to our juvenile justice system to enable them to
effectively deal with that violence. We don't have prevention
funds; we're not allowing consequences for violations by kids.
Number 568
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Engleman if violence on TV should be
banned.
Number 567
MS. ENGLEMAN says she came from the sixties, but she has gotten a
lot more conservative as she's gotten older. She thinks violence
should be banned, records and other things should be labeled for
violence, and parents should take more responsibility for being
home and for supervising their children. Ms. Engleman says the
juvenile justice system is still the best place for prosecuting
juveniles and that the adult justice system is really the wrong
place to prosecute juveniles.
Number 548
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there is anyone else who wishes to testify
on SB 237 at this time.
Hearing none, the chairman announces the committee will stand at
ease to wait for Senator Lincoln to arrive for SB 216.
Number 546
CHAIRMAN LEMAN calls the Senate State Affairs Committee back to
order and announces the committee will now hear SB 216 (DISPLAY SEX
EXPLICIT MATERIALS NEAR MINOR). The chairman calls Senator Lincoln
to the table.
Number 539
SENATOR LINCOLN reads the sponsor statement for SB 216. The
senator shows a xerox copy of a magazine cover and explains the
magazine was displayed right next to the children's toys, on the
same level with the children's toys in a drugstore in her district.
Alaska does not presently have an obscenity law, or any law
pertaining to harmful materials. SB 261 was fashioned, to some
extent, after existing laws in other states. Anchorage, Ketchikan,
and Palmer currently have municipal ordinances which address
obscene materials, but none of those ordinances specifically
address the display of obscene materials within view of children.
Number 480
SENATOR LINCOLN draws the committee's attention to page 2, line 6,
paragraph 2 of SB 216, which states, "a parent or guardian of a
minor who provides material harmful to minors to the minor." The
senator says she does not favor that paragraph, but that its
inclusion was recommended by the legislative drafter, so as not to
infringe on the rights of parents. The senator would feel content
if the committee wanted to exclude paragraph 2.
Number 463
CHAIRMAN LEMAN calls Leigh Ann Barnes to testify.
Number 458
LEIGH ANN BARNES, Cordova City Child Sexual Abuse, testifying from
Cordova, states she worked in the drugstore that Senator Lincoln
mentioned in her testimony. Ms. Barnes says it has been documented
that 80% of rapists admitted to using pornography regularly, with
57% of those rapists admitting to actual imitation of pornography
scenes in commission of sex crimes. There are more outlets for
hard-core pornography in the United States than there are
McDonald's restaurants. Ms. Barnes says she has a long list of
statistics, which she won't read. Ms. Barnes states SB 216 is long
over-due.
Number 420
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Ms. Barnes for her testimony and asks which
drugstore she referred to in her testimony.
Number 414
MS. BARNES responds that the store she referred to is Cordova Drug
Company.
Number 413
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks why SB 216 exempts schools, religious
institutions, etcetera, when the material is provided as an
official function. He wants to know when it would ever be an
official function for these groups to provide this type of material
to a minor.
Number 403
SENATOR LINCOLN says the exemptions were discussed with the
legislative drafter, and the reason for the exemptions is that a
state cannot tell a school or a religious organization what
material they can or cannot use. What material institutions use is
up to the particular institution.
Number 390
CHAIRMAN LEMAN disagrees, saying the three-part test should be
applicable to these organizations also.
Number 381
SENATOR LINCOLN thinks the law excludes schools, religious
organizations, etcetera, so they can carry medical texts and
psychological texts that might have examples of pornography. The
exemption isn't there in order to allow these places to carry
pornographic magazines. However, there will always be textbooks
that will be in question.
Number 373
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thinks there is a clear distinction between the
display of nudity in a medical journal and the type of thing Ms.
Barnes described. The chairman notes the committee is looking at
an amendment which would incorporate in the bill the labeling of
videos, audiotapes, and CD's if they contain sexually explicit
material or violence.
Number 351
SENATOR LINCOLN states she would have no objection to that
amendment being added to SB 216.
Number 350
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Senator Lincoln for her testimony.
Number 339
CHAIRMAN LEMAN adjourns the meeting of the Senate State Affairs
Committee at 10:24 a.m.
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